On August 1st we purchased a 4 yr old AQH filly. The horse was being trained as a Reining Prospect and spent the past 2 years in shoes all around (Sliders in the rear). The horse also 1 week prior to our purchase tore both of her front shoes off. The Previous owner had the farrier come back to re-set the shoes. The horse was normally stalled 7 days a week, only a few hours pasture per week.

When we brought the horse to our location, again 2 weeks ago, I pulled the shoes. She was immediately tender on hard ground so I only removed a tiny amount of sole where it had touched the shoe. (Her sole was also very soft) Afterwards she was put out to pasture. Next, that evening she was brawling with a pasture mate and charged through a fence. So she was moved to an outer area witch included paved surfaces and stony areas.

The following days she was in good spirits but very tender on hard ground and reluctant to travel across stony areas with mild general lameness on grass.

The pasture-mate she had brawled with was relocated to a different area and our horse was put back out on the pasture. Our horse only seemed to get more sore, even walking on grass. So, After one week we called out a farrier to see if he could help us out. He performed a hoof test and determined that in both front feet all around were sore. Back feet were a little tender but no soreness from the back of the frog. (Navicular Check)
His comments also included that her feet were too short and very thin walled.
He nailed on one front shoe and the horse flinched with every hammer strike. After he put her foot down she refused to put weight on it and when she did she took very lame steps. So I had the shoe removed and nails checked for blood or fluid. No obvious signs of close or quicked nails were found. However she was still more sore on that foot then the other.

Later that day, I applied Super-Fast Hoof Builder to both feet in an attempt to build up a “Shoe” for her. I leveled and finished the product as prescribed and sent her on her way. She was still reluctant to cross stones but was more comfortable on paved surfaces.

One comment by the farrier was that she could have in the past foundered somewhat and that could be the source of her pain. With only a hoof test and some imperfect growth rings to go on we thought that was a long stretch.

As of yesterday, she is running with the herd in the pasture but still seems off at a walk, mostly in the foot we attempted to shoe. As she crosses paved surfaces she puts her feet down flat but cautiously. She walks on gravel like we would on ice, foot placed and tested before proceeding to the next step. However, on the lounge in sand at the trot and canter there are no signs of lameness. She stands normal, not rocked back onto the heels or toes. There is no obvious heat or pounding pulse in the hoof or pastern.

The biggest problem is, vet accessibility. Our best choice is a 3hr drive away with no appointments until next week.

My question is, can mild founder go undetected for years until shoes are pulled and the horse put to pasture? Or is it more likely that a horse that was shod for two years with thin walls and soft soles, suddenly barefoot on mixed terrain, developed some bruises?
Can a horse with her lack of hoof strength have a mild rotation after getting its shoes pulled? If so, wouldn’t the pain be more acute and force the horse into a founder stance or at least avoid pressure on the toe?

Obviously, we are getting bombarded with opinions and what ifs, I guess I’m just asking for a professional opinion to sort this mess out and do what’s best for the horse.

Also, would be a filled sole pad recommended? And if then would it be a good idea to bring it to the ground for support or leave it recessed only for protection. Or, if the horse did founder, would sole pressure (in the case of filled sole) hurt or help?

What would be recommend in the way trials to help trouble-shoot this issue?

Thank you in advance for your time

Answers in Dutch are welcome, I do speak Dutch, but my husband wrote this message.

KB schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 2:26:


Een 4 jarige met al 2 jaar ijzers.....en 7 dagen per week op stal.
Niet zo gek dat het paard niet op zijn eigen voeten kan lopen.
Misschien kun je wat foto's van de voeten maken, maar ik denk dat er maar één ding mee gedaan moet worden om te zorgen dat je over een poosje nog een paard hebt.
Het paard de tijd geven om de schade die de onderontwikkelde voeten van die ijzers hebben opgelopen te boven te komen.
Véél beweging, 24 uur buiten, het eerste half jaar, misschien wel jaar, niets moeten en dan de voeten gaan trainen over harde en nog later over harde onregelmatige ondergrond. Als het pijnlijk is koop hoefschoenen en train ze daarmee.
Helemaal niks aan die voetjes plakken of slaan. Zorg voor een optimale doorbloeding.
Beweging, goed natuurlijk voer en goed bekappen. Kijk eens op de site van bv Pete Ramey, op internet is een boel te vinden over bekappen.
Of kom op vakantie naar Nederland en ik leer het je
Ik hoop dat je hier iets aan hebt.

KB schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 2:26:


Hi KB,

To be honest how yr horse is reacting is very normal regarding his history.
If it would be my horse I would absolutely not put products etc on the hoofs.
Let nature shape it over time.Produce a good mustang rol on the hooves and maintain it.Your horse will tell you when it is ready,do not force anything.Sensitiveness is fully normal and does not have to be in relation with founder.Removing shoes will not at all provoke founder.Only long time hidden bruises and weaknesses will come to the surface due to improved hoof mechanism.You might even get abcesses since your horse wants to get rid of toxins by higher blood flow,totally normal and should be of no worry.
But do not except to solve a many year problem in a few weeks.You might look at also a year.
Movement and I mean constant movement is the key to success!!!
Boxrest is the most detrimental for any horse.
If the horse is 24/7 out you give it the best chance to improve asap.

Hope this helps.

Cedric Coucke
Dubai

KB schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 2:26:


It appears to me that this horse is not foundered. What happened is that due to years of shoeing and lack of movement the laminae is very weak. The coffin bone is not held up tight enough and puts undue pressure on the sole. When walking on gravel the sole gets pinched between the protruding stones and the coffin bone which carries the weight of the horse. This not only causes immediate pain, but also causes bruising which can result in tenderness for several days.

The good news is that the laminae will heal completely (in the right circumstances, i.e. with lots of movement, low carb food, and without shoes), but the bad news is that the new laminae will grow together with the hoof wall, so it will take a while until it has grown out far enough to have replaced all the bad laminae. This may well take up to a year, but often much less than that.

So, during this process, avoid gravel and other surfaces where the horse shows tenderness. Movement is the key for the healing process, so keep the horse 24/7 outside. Give low carb food, that is, no grains or grain derivates, but plenty of hay and grass instead.

Remember, there are no short-cuts here. Any product that promises immediate effect is either a scam, or harmfull for your horse. You can not really influence the timelime here, except for giving plenty of opportunity for movement.

Frans

"If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

PN goes international

Debunking Dominance Theory
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Explain it all away
Throughout the pet business right now, "dominance theory" is a popular explanation for absolutely anything that happens, from a puppy tugging on your trouser leg to birds flying up instead of down. Conquering "dominance" has become justification for absolutely any punishment people can think up, from shocking dogs to stuffing parrots into the toilet. (Yes, seriously.) And the awful thing is that otherwise sensible people believe this nonsense. Apparently the idea that some animal is trying to "dominate" YOU really resonates. Yikes—gotta stop that, right

You may be pleased to learn that some British scientists have blown a hole in the whole dog dominance business. Researchers in companion animal behavior in the University of Bristol veterinary department studied a group of dogs at a re-homing center, and also reanalyzed existing studies on feral dogs. Their conclusion: individual relationships between dogs are learned through experience rather than motivated by a desire to assert "dominance."
According to these specialists in companion animal behavior, training approaches aimed at "dominance reduction" vary from worthless to downright dangerous. Making dogs go through doors or eat their dinners after you, not before, will not shape the dogs' overall view of the relationship, but will only teach them what to expect in those situations. [1]
In other words, that stuff is silly, but harmless.
"Much worse, techniques such as pinning the dog to the floor, grabbing the jowls, or blasting hooters [noise makers] at dogs, will make dogs anxious, often about their owner, and potentially lead to an escalation of aggression." [2]

Consequences
Veterinarians and shelters are seeing the results of this misapplied dominance. As one veterinary behaviorist put it to me at a recent scientific meeting, "A puppy has to submit to whatever the owner does; it has no choice. Then around the age of two comes just one Alpha roll too many, and the dog defends itself at last and tries to take the owner's face off." So now the dog is in the shelter. And these dogs are fearful, unpredictable, and very hard to rehabilitate
Teaching people the power of clicker training is the benign and much more effective alternative. I'm so glad you all are out there, showing people through your own example and your happy, cooperative, attentive clicker dogs that there is a better way.
Happy clicking,

Karen Pryor
Sunshine Books, Inc.
49 River St., Suite 3
Waltham, MA 02453
1-800-47-CLICK(2-5425)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] If you'd like to read the original paper:
Bradshaw, John W.S., Emily J. Blackwell, and Rachel A. Casey. "Dominance in Domestic Dogs—Useful Construct or Bad Habit?" Journal of Veterinary Behavior: Clinical Applications and Research (May/June 2009), 135-14.
[2] From a nice summary of the research:
"Using 'Dominance' to Explain Dog Behavior Is Old Hat," Science Daily, May 25, 2009.
© 2009, Karen Pryor Clickertraining (KPCT)TM
--

Piet schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 17:45:


sh.t verkeerd forum....

Piet schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 17:47:


Nee hoor ... ook handig tot met aanleren "voetjes" geven en voeten hoog houden?
Trouwens, beter mee-verlegen dan om-verlegen, toch?

Arabesk schreef op vrijdag 14 augustus 2009, 15:21:


Yep, it is the obvious next step.

Hence the new product name "Equinovations" as some might have noticed.

Frans

"If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

Hartstikke bedankt voor al de advies! Mij paard staat al sinds ik haar gekocht heb 24/7 op de wei. We hebben nu zacht material (felt) met tape aan haar hoeven geplakt, vologende week Maandag halen we het af en dan moet ze zonder lopen.
Het problem is dat ze een Reining Performance paard is en wedstreiten moet lopen, dus ik heb geen keuze dan Sliding ijzers aan de achterhoeven de platsen Anders maak ik haar benen kapot met die Slidingstops. De voorkant zal ik graag zonder ijzers laten en alleen met Easyboots indien nodig.

KB schreef op zaterdag 15 augustus 2009, 15:04:


Hoezo MOET dat?


Die keus heb je wel! Allereerst zijn er talloze manieren om plezier met je paard te hebben zonder wedstrijden of sliding stops.
Verder heb ik me door een kenner laten vertellen dat er in de reglementen nergens staat hoever een paard moet kunnen sliden, als het maar op de correcte wijze wordt uitgevoerd.
Het sliden kan prima zonder ijzers, het oogt alleen wat minder spectaculair. En je moet het niet over-and-over-again doen. Ook op deze wijze kun je prima met wedstrijden mee doen, als dat dan toch zonodig 'moet'.

Hoe dan ook, zet er sliding ijzers onder en je paard draait uiteindelijk in de vernieling. Als die wedstrijdjes belangrijker voor je zijn dan de gezondheid van je paard, so be it.

Frans

"If your only tool is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail."

KB schreef op zaterdag 15 augustus 2009, 15:04:


Niks moet en alles mag
Vorig jaar heb ik op één of andere site (niet onthouden waar wegens geen interesse van mijn kant voor western) aangepaste renegade hoefschoenen gezien.Volgens die man maakte z'n paard betere slides( heet dat zo?) met schoenen dan met beslag.Mss een idee.

jan.

Mijn paard had ondergeschoven hielen.
En ook flares in de kwartieren.
Mij was verteld dat de flares het gevolg waren van de ondergeschoven hielen.
Maar ze heeft nu géén ondergeschoven hielen meer, en toch nog flares in de kwartieren.

Vandaag daarom eens gezocht op internet, en gevonden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op_TAVmEf2I&feature=related

Deze vrouw legt uit dat zowel de flares als de ondergeschoven hielen het gevolg zijn van overgroeiende steunsels.
De overgroeiende steunsels drukken volgens haar in de zool, en belemmeren de groei van de zool in de richting waarin deze hoort te groeien (richting bodem waar hoef op staat).
Omdat de zool toch groeit, zoekt deze een nieuwe richting, en dat betekent dat de zool tegen de hoefwand gaat drukken in de kwartieren. De zool duwt dan de hoefwand naar buiten en veroorzaakt daarmee zowel de flares als de ondergeschoven hiel.
Ze legt dit heel duidelijk uit in 3 video's, Hoofwall Anatomy Part 1, 2 en 3. Ze staat op YouTube onder de naam thehappyhoof.

Ik was al bezig om de steunsel anders in te korten, zoals Nils een tijdje terug tipte. Ga dit nu nog grondiger doen. Wie weet. Als het gaat helpen dan meld ik het hier.
Coralie

Coralie schreef op zondag 16 augustus 2009, 14:59:


Of niet:
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/support-files/the-bars.pdf
Ik ben juist gestopt met het korthouden (op zoolhoogte) van de steunsels bij 1 van m'n 2 paarden. Ik kon wel blijven snijden, het bleef altijd snel terugkomen.
"Remember that when a horse puts out ‘excess’ growth it is
trying to recover from something..... Be sure it is not your
trim!"
Dit paard had enorme flaires in de kwartieren. Ondertussen nauwelijks meer.

Was het maar waar dat het paard niet moet sliden en alleen stoppen. Maar in Reining wint het paard dat het verste slide, het snellste spint en achteruit lopt en de beste galop wisseling doet.
Hellaas ik ik nog nooit van hoefshoenen gehoort warr je mee kunt sliden. De sliding ijzers steken een centimeter ver achter de hoef uit, special om beter te sliden. Dus Jan, als je de website terug zou kunnen vinden, laat aub iets weten. Aan de voorkant gebruik ik gewoon Easyboots.