Huertecilla schreef op maandag 17 oktober 2005, 15:13:
> Ik hoef echter geen koeien/stieren te drijven/hoeden.
Waardering voor je eerlijke antwoord, op het niets vinden van going with. Waar je stoere leiderschap toe leid is ook overduidelijk heel prachtig. Ik heb hier een brief van Russ Burns die werkt met koeien op basis van een flink stuk going with. Ik heb zijn toestemming tot doorgeven van zijn brieven:
Michiel
From: Russ Burns Dec 23, 2004 Subject: Re: [horsemaninside]
Message: 2062
>
When the horse gets real aggressive on the cow, a lot of folks call that "expression" and it's supposed to be a good thing.
>
I have never worked cattle in an arena, so I am not sure just what the dynamics are. I think working cows is just a matter of having control of your horse and letting your horse understand what it is you are trying to do.
Working cattle is done best with indirect feel. Me and my horse, can move a cow, or a herd from a couple of hundred feet away. I think horses know how to do this instinctively, but they do not know how you want to move the cows.
I suppose if there are some issues with your space issues, that could show up when you are using indirect feel to move cattle. There might be some inconsistencies in your horsemanship that bother your horse and some horses get pretty bothered by it.
If you have never learned how to go with your horse, putting him on cows may not be the time to figure out how to do that.
If you and your horse are confused, and the cow thinks if can run over you, it will. If you are working cattle close up, then you need to depend on the horses perception of the situation. If you are working from a distance, then the horse needs to be listening to your perception.
From what I can see, horses understand cattle pretty well. Give them a chance to figure it out and they will. If you have other issues getting in the way of the horse figuring out the cattle, then you should probably figure out how to work those issues.
I don't know about the aggression.
I don't have any aggression in my horses and I am not sure I would want any. The horse I have worked with that were aggressive, were trained to be that way.
I look at working with cattle as an extension of your ground manners. When Peppy and I started working cattle, he was confused and a little unsure. I gave him as much leeway to figure it out, but I also set the limits.
My guess is if there is aggression, the horse is trying to figure out if the cow is a part of his pecking order, or if it comes under your pre defined ground rules. Now you might use this aggressiveness to your advantage, but if it caused by a hole in your ground manners, then I think you might have some issues.
Most of the work Peppy and I have done is slow work. When we get to the point of pushing calves that are tired, Peppy will go up to them and push them with his nose. It is not aggression, he just understand the job. The one time we did work cattle fast, Peppy figure it out pretty quick, and we made a pretty good team cutting pairs out in the bar ditch along the fence line, moving at a gallop.
Now I can see issues, if your horse is not used to thinking and working with you mentally. If you have your horse trained to listen to you, how is he supposed to be aware of his environment, and watch a cow at the same time?
If you only work cattle for competition, then I can see how a horse can figure out the rules when he is in an arena.
In reading some of the posts, I can see how some of the groundwork training, might create that aggressiveness in a horse. If a handler can only firm up and move a horse out of their space when they get angry, maybe that is how the horse thinks he has to move the cattle out of his space.
If there is a lot of pressure on a horse when he moves his feet by himself on the ground, then he may have that pressure when he tries to move his feet on his own, moving cattle. It is interesting, when I find an issues with my riding, I look back, and make sure I am not putting it there with my ground work. For me eliminating those little conflicts seem to go a long way with my horses.
When it comes to training cow horses, I don't have a clue. I do think the competition world is too specific and too fast pace to really produce a good cow horse. I also have not see anyone who really produces a nice cow horse as a result of working cattle. From what I can tell, it is pretty much a lost art.
So I just work on getting the best all around horse I can, and see how I can best work cattle on the horse I am riding. If I can't get close to a cow, then I ride my horse where he is comfortable till he can get close. It is real easy for me to hang back on a drive, or just take a long slow ride through a pasture of cattle. I can structure my rides, so my horse can figure it out at his pace.
I do think that is a big part of getting a good quality cowhorse. But I will also probably be 95 before I am sure.
Have a good christmas
Russ
Warboel
